That's quite a review! (And yet I still wouldn't know how to define slipstream if asked.)

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Nick: I'm with you, but I think Jim and John have an essay in the book that attempts to define it. From what I've read, I don't think they try to be absolutely definitive. I do think there is probably a vague link between much of the work of the writers they've chosen here, but I couldn't articulate it. In any event, I think it's going to be a terrific anthology, and as a reader, that's the part I'm anticipating.

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Judging from the names here, I'm interested in checking this book out, though from the looks of things, I may have already read many of the stories inside.

One thing that bothers me is that the subtitle states that it's not just a slipstream anthology, but the slipstream anthology. It's a little thing, but I have the feeling it'll lead to many reviews talking about the absence of this story or that story, as if this was the definitive tome on the subject.

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Without really coming out and saying so the anthology, it seems, by its very existence, kind of makes a play for the term "slipstream" as being the default term for the type of writing on display. This is something that Jim and John are into -- more power to them. I was never fond of the appellation. As far as there danger in it being perceived as the definitive slipstream anthology, I think that's a bit of the snake oil -- you know marketing technique. Once you see the toc, I don't think you can dispute it's a hell of a book. There are writers right now I could add to this list, but not having seen John and Jim's intro, I'm not quite sure what they are conveying and how they are thinking of the term. Only one way to find out.

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It's a little thing, but I have the feeling it'll lead to many reviews talking about the absence of this story or that story, as if this was the definitive tome on the subject.

Yes, the book is presenting itself as the slipstream anthology, but I'm not sure anyone has enough of an idea of what the canonical slipstream stories are, or even might be, to spend much time worrying about whether they were or weren't included.

That said, it seems a fairly serious omission not to include Sterling's original essay. They quote from it, and they do nail their colours to the mast somewhat by providing a loose definition of slipstream. I don't have my copy to hand, but IIRC it boils down to 1. not naturalistic, 2. not genre and 3. postmodern. It's a fairly substantial introduction (also printed in the May NYRSF), but what you can do is look at the stories in the book and see if they support Kessel and Kelly's argument or not. So, for instance, is it useful to think of 'Hell is the Absence of God' as slipstream? Or is 'The Specialist's Hat' the best Kelly Link story to include?

I think (or at least, at the moment I think I think) the answer is 'no' to both, as it happens, largely because I'm not convinced by the definition Kessel/Kelly propose. But I'll save that for when I write my review of the book ... :)

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Niall: Sorry I missed this post till now. I don't think you're going to be alone with a different take on the stories in the toc of this anthology. I look forward to your review and the rest of the dialogue on "slipstream" that will certainly follow this book's publication.

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Jeff-- Jim and John put in excerpts (or were going to?) of that whole slipstream/infernokrusher debate that peeps had at David Mole's blog last year, so at some point Jim sent me a working TOC. Lemme know if you want me to forward it along.

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Meghan: Do you have it in word? I have a pdf of it and still need to transpose it into word so I can cut and paste. If you have it in word please send it. And, yes, the stuff from David Moles's Chrononautic and so forth is still going to be in it. I think that was a great idea to include portions of that discussion. If you don't have it in Word, I'll start typing later and have the list up by tomorrow morning. Thanks. Hope you're doing well.

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i DO have it in word. I'll send it over.

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Great. Thanks!!

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Megan --

The slipstream/infernokrusher debate *is* in there. That's what the "I Want My 20th-Century Schizoid Art" entries are composed of.

Jeff --

Your story kicks so much ass! I hadn't read that one before (even though I have the collection it appears in). Simply awesome.

Overall, it's a damn fine book, no matter what the objective. After reading it, I'm still not sure I totally understand what slipstream is, or why certain stories were chosen, but there's a bunch of great stories there, regardless.

I'm in the process of conducting an interview with Kelly & Kessel (for SF Weekly) about the antho (and slipstream in general), so maybe I'll know more after that's done.

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John: Thanks and thanks for posting. And don't worry, I didn't forget about that book I gotta send you. I work slow, though, like the San Andreas Fault. I look forward to you interview with Kessel and Kelly.

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Of the stories in the book that I remember reading I'd say the Sterling, Kelly Link, Chiang, Fowler, and Waldrop are absolutely NOT what I'd consider slipstream. The Link is a supernatural ghost story, The Waldrop and Fowler are alternate histories, which are firmly included in the sf/f genres. From what I recall of Sterling's it was horror. Chiang's is sf/f.
Ellen Datlow

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Ellen: A contentious voice from Down Under. Like I said to Niall above, I think this anthology is going to start up a heap of discussion. As for myself, I never understood exactly what slipstream was. And to tell the god's honest truth, it never really mattered. It still looks like a cool anthology, though. How's the trip going? Having fun?

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Hey Jeff,
Having a terrific time. Spent two days at Ayer's Rock it is awesome. Now in Alice Springs for the night. Going by bus to Coober Pedy, the underground opal mining town tomorrow and then on to Adelaide Wednesday evening where Kate Eltham and I stay with Sean Williams.

"Slipstream" is as meaningful as "interstitial" ;-)
Ellen

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Hey, Ellen--we expected this to spark a debate, and I would be surprised if anyone thought our selections were without flaw. If you haven't already, you might read the intro, which gives some of our rationale. But let me comment a bit on your objections.

Sterling we felt needed to be in the book because he invented the term if not the form. "The Little Magic Shop" is far from being a horror story, it's more of a pastiche or metafiction commenting on "little magic shop" stories. And at the end it turns into an allegory: "the little magic shop" is science fiction. Mr. Oberrone is the stick-in-the-mud traditionalists who want sf to never change from what it was in 1944, and therefore have become arthritic and irrelevant. The young sleazemeister who has taken over the shop is the modern bottom line exploitative publishing industry that doesn't really care about sf, just about making money. And James the hero is Bruce Sterling, dragging the genre kicking and screaming, against its will, into the 21st century and rejuvenation.

"Fowler's "Lieserl" is not an alternate history. It's a literalized metaphor. As in Einstein's twin paradox, his daughter Lieserl ages rapidly while Albert, moving at the speed of light, ages much more slowly. Fowler uses one historical fact and creates a metaphor for Albert's abandonment of his family.

Link's story is indeed a ghost story. But it also plays against the long history of ghost stories. Howard's story is definitely an alternate history, but it also is a pastiche of Elizabethan drama. Maybe that's not enough to put them completely in the slipstream box, but genres are not airtight boxes. A story can be in more than one genre, or wobble along the border.

I don't see how you can define Ted's story as SF. Perhaps you can call it Fantasy, but it's not conventional fantasy. And it uses a narrative stance (the God's-eye-view of 19th century fiction or fable, the complete lack of dramatization or dialogue) that creates parable more than contemporary fiction. This parabolic quality, I would maintain, is very common to what I call slipstream

Of course this is all subject to debate, We could be definitely wrong. But we did not pick our TOC lightly.

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John: Great post. Thanks! And the book looks fantastic. I'm thrilled to be in it. Would you mind if I took this comment and set it up as a main post? I'd also like to move Ellen's up there. I think it might be a good way to attract some other opinions and get a dialogue going. Let me know if that's ok.

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Go right ahead, Jeff. I'll be curious to see any responses.

Congrats on your new book.

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John: Thanks! I put it up on the new post. We'll see if anyone bites.

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I don't see how you can define Ted's story as SF.

I would argue it like this: like 'Tower of Babel' and '72 Letters', 'Hell is the Absence of God' is a science fiction story set in a world where a past or present belief in our world is actually a truth. Which is to say it's a science fiction story because it works like a science fiction story; it's committed to the rational exploration of the consequences of the world it presents. Certainly the very last thing it does, in my opinion, is make you feel strange.

And at the very least, if you're arguing 'The Little Magic Shop' is science fiction, I'm not sure how you can say 'Hell is the Absence of God' so clearly isn't. Sterling's story, too, relies on gaming the rules of the world in which it takes place. (A successful attempt to do so in Sterling compared to a failure in Chiang, but still, the same basic strategy.)

Link's story is indeed a ghost story. But it also plays against the long history of ghost stories.

And this is enough to make something slipstream? Hmm. There are undoubtedly Kelly Link stories that I would argue for as slipstream (I think 'The Hortlak' and 'Some Zombie Contingency Plans' are probably the first ones that come to mind), but like Ellen, I can't help feeling that 'The Specialist's Hat' is a ghost story. An excellent example of a ghost story but, nonetheless, not doing anything that many other ghost stories haven't done before. It seems traditional.

On the other hand, I'm right there with you on the inclusion of 'Lieserl', though I suspect for slightly different reasons. :)

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Niall: I'm not sure about the other stories discussed but I think you're right about the Link story -- not that anyone is asking but I'd have picked "Lull." That could be because it's my favorite story of hers, and like I said, until I read the intro to the new antho I won't be sure what definition of slipstream we're talking about here.

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One correction: I do not argue that "The Little Magic Shop" (the story) is science fiction. I argue that, IN the story, the thing itself--the little magic shop--REPRESENTS science fiction in the allegorical ending. Sterling is saying that science fiction is a little magic shop. It's a provocative metaphor.

"The Hortlak" was the other Kelly Link story I wanted, but which we did not choose for other reasons.

Though I agree with you that Ted's story does apply sf thinking to a fantastic or theological premise, I'll have to disagree about "Hell is the Absense of God" (or "Tower of Babylon" for that matter) making you feel strange.

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My bad on 'The Little Magic Shop'; although if it's only allegory, surely it's about abandoning the genre rather than rejuvenating it. If the magic shop itself is the genre, well, Jame's exploitation of it is at least as cynical as the new owner's, if not more so. And at the end of the story it's been ransacked for what it has to offer (which is finite) and abandoned by James. There may be more of science fiction, the form, out there in the world, but that has nothing to do with James; the only thing he rejuvenates is the old fan.

I'll have to disagree about "Hell is the Absense of God" (or "Tower of Babylon" for that matter) making you feel strange.

This is really the crux of the issue, isn't it? Strangeness is in the eye of the beholder. But there's a similarity here with horror, I think--even if you don't find a given story scary, you can recognise that it's horror because of the things that it does. Similarly, if slipstream is about making you feel strange, to talk usefully about it we need to be able to recognise the strategies that stories use to generate a feeling of strangeness, and while those strategies clearly exist, I just don't see them in Chiang's stories. The end of 'Tower of Babel' for instance (or the opening of 'Hell') is surely geared more towards revelation, epiphany, amazement, wonder, than it is towards strangeness.

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The matter of strategies of generating strangeness is one of the points of our introduction. For instance, revealing an allegorical level to a story that has not seemed allegorical to that point is a very common way that slipstream stories create strangeness. The narrative choices Ted makes in "Hell" are another way: when was the last time you read a story of this length that had absolutely no dialogue?

About Sterling's story: yes, you can see the ending as being about abandoning genre--but he takes the proprietor with him, and forces him to rejuvenate himself. I don't think the proprietor is a fan--he's a practitioner of and believer in the old ways.

Maybe they are moving out of genre into the landscape of slipstream.

One of the interesting things about this story is that I don't think many readers even got the allegorical ending (probably because the story doesn't start as allegory--the switch to allegory comes out of nowhere), though it's obvious once you realize it. If you ignore the allegorical level and take it as a magic shop story, the ending comes across as a fundamental violation of the "rules" of such magic-shop stories, which are fundamentally conservative--they're all about how you can't escape the rules of magic shops, and every magic (like a youth potion) must take its toll on its user. Not in Sterling's story. It's an invigorating violation of expectations, but also disconcerting. Fans of magic shop stories might feel this is an unsatisfying example of one because it throws away the fundamental premise of such stories. It want to abandon the whole idea of such stories, go outside of or beyond them.

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